Let's talk
about the nightmare
of building
a business
with your
your wife.
Let's go.
Let's
be cheaper
than therapy.
Debatable.
People are
always asking us,
how on earth
do you spend
24 over
seven together
and not want to
kill each other?
if there's a
problem at work,
it doesn't
come home.
And if there's a
problem at home,
it doesn't
come to work.
Easier said
than done,
by the way.
you can
basically kill the
you can kill
the romance
pretty quickly.
This could be awkward
if this sparked
a fight.
would you
be not obsessive,
but work as hard
as you do
if you weren't
doing it for me?
What's it like
working with
your wife?
It's wonderful.
Really enjoy it.
And on next
week's episode.
People are
always asking
us, how on earth
do you spend
24 over
seven together
and not want to
kill each other?
You know,
being a bit tongue
in cheek here,
It is
an interesting
question because
I suppose
we've done it
for so long now.
It's just become
our life
of building
companies together
and and juggling
between what
others would see
as work
life and home life,
which we probably
should
discuss with.
I would really see
a different
differentiation
between work
and home life.
It's just life.
But we should
talk about
building a company
together.
We started
building
our company,
our first
company together
when we were
dating. Yes.
So,
that was looked
at by probably a
majority of people
are being
very stupid
decision.
You were
working full
time at
a very
large company,
doing very well.
Go back there like
at that stage. Why?
Why the shift?
Why take the risk
and how to be
enough here?
Yeah. Thankfully.
Good at on.
I think if we just
bring it back to
that question of
what is it
actually like
working together?
It doesn't
really matter
where you've
come from.
I was at a very
big organization.
I didn't
particularly
like it that much,
so I was
very open to
working together.
You'd always worked
for yourself
in your
own businesses,
so for you,
it was on.
It wasn't anything
new that you
were working
for yourself.
I probably had.
Double edged sword,
but in a positive
way.
So I started
the business
with you,
but also by myself.
So
I had your support.
So I wasn't alone
in that respect.
But also we
were fairly early
on in our
relationship.
And so
those lines
have been blurred
all the way
through.
Yeah.
From the very
beginning to
now that
there is no
work in home life,
it is one
and the same.
So I don't think
either of us
really know
the difficulty
of working
with a partner,
because we've
always done it.
Yeah,
I think
the particularly
the in
the early stages,
the balancing
act is
you're in
a relationship
that's obviously
the, you know,
very fun
part of the start
of relationship
where everything
new, exciting
and you're
doing things,
but also then
putting a business
on the top,
like there's
excitement around
also having
a project.
And obviously
we're getting
fairly serious
because you don't
want to commit
to something
that takes a lot
of hard work
if you're not sure.
I think deep down
maybe I'm
speaking myself,
but it felt like
there was
a future there.
It was sort of
that was
also a decision of,
well,
we're enjoying
spending time
together
and it's growing.
We want to
start thinking,
even though
it wasn't
sort of
verbalized at
the time of,
you know what
this could be,
but it's a
big commitment
to actually be
in parties
together.
And we at the time,
as you said,
kept your company
separate
because it
was your company
and you needed to.
But that's
probably,
I think,
the early part,
the hardest
part was,
you know,
how do you
you and you
to running
your own business.
I'd done it
for a while.
How do you
not move
from a relationship
of equals to a
with all
a better word,
a teacher student
relationship of,
you know,
you can kill
the romance
pretty quickly.
And shifting
the dynamic
of a relationship
of equals
to you're growing
something
that someone's had
more experience in.
I think that
was difficult.
Not difficult
to start,
but something
we were probably
aware of
or I certainly was.
We
definitely worked
hard on that,
which was
because you had
so much experience
in business
and also in
life, you.
Seven years
older than
me and at the time
I was 22.
And so
that was something
that we
definitely worked
extremely hard on.
And a lot of people
probably think, I'm
just going
to start
the business
with my partner
and everything's
going to be fine.
We had a lot of
very upfront
and very
honest
conversations,
and
not in a bad way,
but there was no
real emotion
in them.
They were
this is what
we're doing,
and either
we're all in
or we're not.
And there was
no good
or bad to it.
It was just
where this is both
what we believe.
Are we both
on the same page?
And if we are,
if there's
a problem at work,
it doesn't
come home.
And if there's a
problem at home,
it doesn't
come to work.
Easier said
than done,
by the way.
It's like
it's easy to.
Hence we
worked hard
on that.
But also
it's I
think because
yeah, it's
that it's
the working
hard of, hey,
how do we
communicate
differently
in the
professional way
when you start
getting stuff?
It actually became
a lot harder
because you can't
just have
conversations
all the time
in front
of everyone.
We also,
I think
what you said
then was probably
really important
that we made
a decision
how important
the business, was.
We were doing
it seriously.
So every time
we discussed it,
we both having
mature enough
to call it.
It's a matter
of fact,
not an opinion
on the business.
Like we're just
talking things
that are
actually doesn't
have that
much meaning.
It was we're trying
to get this project
and do it well.
Why is there
a motion around?
I think both of us
are probably fairly
emotionally
mature around
things
that don't
really have
a lot of,
what do I call like
a lot of
I don't want to say
you don't care
about your business,
but when it's
all said
and done, it's
the least
important things
in the life.
Like people,
family, friends
and all that.
Like you're
fighting so vividly
over a business,
what are you
actually care
more about?
So I think for us,
both of us
had sort of felt
like we were always
arm's length,
even though
we differed
in opinions
and many things.
But we didn't
really fight over
who's right
or wrong
in the business.
It was just more
a matter of
I know
from my
point of view
some of the things
that I'd
already
experienced,
some frustration
of having to
go through them
again, knowing
that's exactly
the wrong thing
we're going to do.
But, you know,
everyone has to
learn these things.
And I had
my company
at the time
as well,
so it wasn't like
full time,
but it was
difficult at that
at that
time, seeing,
I guess, the speed
being affected.
That was my
biggest challenge
of trying to help
is something
I've seen,
but actually
trying to
help with
giving advice
is not the best
in an
early relationship
either. And it is.
It was.
Disproportionate,
our experience
in it,
and as you talk
about it,
was not
student, teacher,
but in the business
world, it
definitely wasn't
the word
that has come up
multiple times
here, which I think
has a huge impact
on working with
whatever
partnership it is,
is maturity.
So regardless
of my age,
I was quite mature,
but I was very
immature
in business
and so
there was a lot
of stuff.
Inexperience.
Yeah,
there was a lot of
lessons I
had to learn. And
for your
credit,
you actually
let me learn them,
much to
the detriment
of your sanity
at times.
Which
what is it
like working
with your partner
if you're both on
the same
page is great,
but if you're
not willing
to have
those discussions
without emotion
and without
maturity.
And what I mean by
that is
if you guys have
a blow up at home,
you do not
get to bring it
into the workplace
because that's
immature.
And I think if you
can't do that,
and a lot of
a lot of couples
probably
experienced
this during Covid
is they were
working in
proximity
with a loved one,
and therefore
they never got
the break
from the loved one
to have their
personal life
personal.
We get no time
to recalibrate
or get distance
from
an emotional situation
because everyone's
locked in
particular. Yeah.
And so you
and I have been
through that
for 20 years,
which is
emotional maturity
around work
being work
personal,
being more
important.
So
when stuff comes up
that is annoying
or a problem,
the ability
to turn around, say
it actually
doesn't matter.
And I'm I'm able to
let it go.
And I think that's
what you and I
probably worked
the most on
was letting
stuff go,
even though
you really wanted
to hold on to it.
Yeah.
And we
the big thing of
learning was,
you know,
we had a manager
at the time
that you are
not the business
by the US,
which is
things happening in
the business
are not happening
to us.
That's a byproduct
of what
we're growing,
that we can't
be emotionally
affected
by all the nuances
and changes in
a company,
and then expect
to have any form
of sanity
or enjoyment
of our life
because it
will become
all encompassing.
I think that's
really important
for those
because you hear
this phrase,
never do business
with family,
never do business
with friends.
And generally
that my
experience is,
it's one of those
sayings
like curiosity
killed the cat.
It sort of works
if it works
for who you are.
But actually,
curiosity
was the mother
of all invention.
it's the way
to evolve.
the key
to innovation.
It's
that curiosity.
But most
people get what
curiosity killed
the cats like.
Well,
you should never
do business
with family
and friends
and the fortunes
and things
that have been made
by family,
businesses, people
doing things well.
They don't
listen to
the rubbish
and rhetoric
that's come out
until you
experience
yourself.
If you have the
right combination,
which we've
found of
we work
particularly
well together,
I think,
and I can
only speak from me,
which is Alina,
is an
extreme reason
that we've
been successful
and probably
the missing link
that took
my business career
to another level,
for sure.
And so for me,
it's only
been something,
albeit
at this
point in time,
she may
want to stab
but the experience
of that
has probably
20, 40, 100 folded.
What I would have
done individually,
and the enjoyment
of it
had probably 10,000
fold it.
Now that's the
by product
of the story.
You don't
hear a lot.
It's become
our life
and the enjoyment
of building
something together,
albeit to stress
all the time
of building
companies,
selling companies,
growing companies,
you know,
it's almost in the
two attics now
doing it.
But the reality of
it is
it was a
fundamental shift
for me.
Liner bought me
a missing piece,
I think,
in my
business career.
So for me
I'm forever
grateful of that.
But it's others
who don't have
that don't have
the right
combination of
that.
It's a
nightmare scenario
to be. 100%.
And on that point,
I still
remember less
than four months
into the
business of us
doing it together.
My mother
sat me down
and said,
you need to
remember that
you would not
have any of this
if it wasn't
for Tim.
And to
things were working
really well.
Money was coming
in,
it was all working
and anyone
could see
it's great.
And that's
really nice
of you to
say about me,
but I wouldn't
have anything.
I wouldn't
have learned
what I've learned.
I wouldn't
have been able
to build.
I build
without you.
And I do think that
when we talk
about partnership
in any format
and in this case,
Nigel
has also been
heavily involved.
Yeah.
Really is the,
I don't want to say
Third World.
You know,
everything that
that crew
for a long time
and that's
helped me like
Nigel is family.
question.
it's these things
that we've got
this combination
of being able
to keep each of us
sane and also,
I think, grounded
in terms
of the things
that are
most important.
But for us, that's
a curated,
rare combination
that I can't say
is replicable
because I've only
got it in my life.
But if you're
choosing this,
the power
of having people
you trust
with your life
that you can rely
on, that you
can bank on it.
And I'll say,
this is not
all rainbows.
And you know,
you know,
whatever the saying
is, it's
we've gone through
some really
difficult times
outside business,
inside business
doing all this,
and we're
still here.
Now,
I don't know if
it's a survivor
syndrome type thing
or whatever it is,
but the reality
of it is
when you're around
people you trust
and love
and you're
building
things that you see
or you find
fulfillment in,
you find enjoyment.
I look forward to
coming to work
even in the worst
time,
because of
the people here.
Now,
what would you pay
for that
in any other aspect
of your life?
And so to
me, that investment
all the time
is unbelievable.
But it also allows
you to be bolder
because you feel
more relaxed
when it goes
the other way.
And you don't
trust your
partner 100%,
or you don't
love your wife
100%,
or you don't
see a future.
Because I think
if I spoke to
both you guys,
can you tell me
if I'm wrong?
We have always said
the friendship
and the marriage
is still
the priority,
regardless of how
frustrated or angry
are with things
that have happened
or have happened.
You know,
you have to have
a grounding thing
higher than
the business,
which is
some people
don't have that,
especially when
money starts
coming in
and doing things
like that.
It's not the same.
You know,
they start seeing
that as well.
I'd rather have
the business
than the person
I don't know if.
What's your
perspective on it?
You've seen us
from the ground up
and you've
been part of it
from the ground up
in many iterations
of all of us
working together,
what have you seen
or what's
your insight
into it?
I've seen for
you guys
a transition,
particularly around
communication
from those
early days
and it was a real
turning point
when when loud days
hit, a certain
number of staff
I saw you went from
communication
is important
to communication
is the only thing
we need to
work on now.
So I remember
there was a day,
there was a
clear separation
a home conversation
and business
conversation.
And it was from
that point on it
really changed
the way
that you're
interacting
from there.
it's a question
that I kind of
want to ask
you guys
I've always been
in business
to work
with you guys
and to deliver
for you guys.
Would you,
do you think
work as hard
as you do?
If you are a
solo founder?
would you have gone
as hard
and taken
as many risks
if it was just
for yourself?
I don't think so
because we are
a positive,
negative influence
on each other,
which is
you can always
go harder,
you can always
go faster,
you can always
push it
that little bit
extra
if you're working,
I'm working.
If I'm working,
it's always
that thing of,
well,
did you
get the work done?
You always have
got an
accountability.
Even though
it's not
an accountability,
it is.
The business
is being built
for the life
that we want,
and so we always
are pushing
each other
in a good way,
even if
we say rest.
So I don't think
I personally would.
I want to say no,
but it would be yes
because I was doing
it as well before.
And I,
I think it's part
of having
an obsessive
compulsive
focus on things
like when
I get involved
in something,
whether it's
learning to
play sport or doing
that, I'm generally
it's an
obsession, like
there's
nothing else
I think
about outside.
Like I'm
always thinking
about work
or sorry,
not at the cost of
thinking
about family,
but I'm saying
it's it's
never gone.
It's not like
I see it as a no.
But can I ask then,
would you
be not obsessive,
but work as hard
as you do
if you weren't
doing it for me?
I think I would
allow things to
slip in areas
because I
wouldn't care
about
the ramifications
myself
as much as I care
about it.
For you guys
particularly
obviously Lana,
but Nigel
being part
of that
conversation.
So the discipline
around outcome
is far
more, focused
being with friends
and family,
like when you're
when you're loyal
to people,
which is one
one of my driving
values,
loyalty is you.
You feel
a obligation
to try and deliver
the best
possible outcome
to your friends
and family
now when they are
part of
the business.
Absolutely.
It's completely
different now.
It's it's hard
because that
also creates
a pressure
that you probably
don't have
when it's
not friends
and family,
you give
a distance
to yourself.
we're enjoying
building a
family business
and we're close.
One of the byproducts
is, is
there's probably
if I looked at it
with a
different hat
on, there's
probably a
major disadvantage
of being able
to distance
yourself
from making
decisions faster
or doing things
because you do
think about people
before people
for process, people
for decisions.
I probably
if we
weren't involved,
probably it
would have made
different decisions
over the journey.
That's not
the same as
not done
a good job.
But you think
about things
differently,
more as a
chessboard
and playing versus
I know
I've got an
emotional weak spot
when it comes to
people in
the company
and doesn't matter
what happens
because I
it's just who I am.
And I just,
I needed to
accept that.
I know,
I know, I
wouldn't behave
the same way
if I didn't
have the
emotional attach.
So that's the
the advantages
we spoke about.
But actually
the disadvantage,
the some
disadvantages.
It's different
Blindspot
on what it means.
I've just got
to be aware of it
a lot of the time,
because I
constantly have
to ask myself
the question
is, am I
seeing through
the care love
I have
for these people
versus
they're just
a shit job
right now
or later on person
do this job
or am I?
Which is
the other thing.
And so it's
I've also told you
a client
was rude to me
and you wanted
to pick up
the phone
and fire them. So.
You know,
it's like,
you know, clients
being rude to,
you know,
to Lana or Nigel.
It's like, well,
fuck them off,
like versus.
Well,
if you're a CEO
looking at
something like,
you've got
to start looking
at the situation
from both sides.
So I have to
acknowledge a bias
I have towards
loyalty to them,
to my friends.
But, you know,
I come
to peace
with that ago.
And if I'm making
long decisions
because it's
based on the care
I have
for the people
I love,
I'm good with it.
But so what?
That's,
you know, to me,
that took a
while to
calibrate that.
I thought
I could be
more balanced
in the way
of running
a company,
but I just
realized there's
no chance I can be.
I've just got to
understand that
I'm going
to make mistakes
based on that bias,
but I'm
prefer to be
that person
than the other,
so who cares?
So then, advice
for working with
partner loved one.
My advice is it's
been for me
the most
transformative,
enjoyable journey
I could have
wished.
And I would
have not
changed a thing.
But
you have to know
who you are
and what you stand
for to
make that work.
Because if you're
not quite sure
and you you.
I don't gamble with
friends and family.
Others
I've seen do.
And I've seen
the price
that I thought
someone
would gamble
with their friends
and family
being a lot
lower than
I expect.
And so
that's the thing
that's always
surprised me
when these type
of situations
go horribly wrong
is literally how,
like how
someone would
blow up a family
and over ten grand
or something
so stupid and that
and they
don't consciously
do it at the time.
But at the end
of the day,
when you
you do
something, it's
such a
minuscule thing
that's so built
with emotion
because you're
in this pressure
cooker for so long.
You're like,
oh my God, you lost
20 years
of a relationship
over something
that if
you looked back
20 years and said,
we would have
never fight,
you never
would have.
But it's the
compounding things
you need.
And so that
that is the
fear around being
when it
when it is
tough in a business
that you
actually have
to really
know yourself
and what's
your priority
and make
sure that even
at its worst,
are you still
are you still
making a decision
based on who
you are
as a person?
I think that's
the challenge
a lot of people
don't have.
I don't know,
what about you?
Yeah.
It's okay.
What advice
or specific things
would you tell
or give
to a partnership
that is struggling
at the moment?
How do you write
that course?
What I was going
to say,
beyond being funny,
which applies to
this, is
beyond hilarious.
The first
the first step is
you're not right
in the partnership.
A lot
of partnerships
in the breakdowns
and all that stuff
is your assumption
that you're right
and the other
person is wrong,
that you did it
right
and they did
it wrong
and they did it
against you,
and you did it
for you, right?
You did it
for them.
And it's
this assumption,
almost this
egotistical of it's
all about me
in a partnership.
It actually has
nothing to do
with you.
It has nothing
to do
with
the other person.
If you do
something to him
that I disagree
with,
you're not doing it
against me.
You're doing it
for what
you believe
the business needs.
You're not
doing it for you.
You're doing it
for what
the business needs.
I think
it's taking that
step back,
egotistical
and not thinking
that you are
the right one
or the wrong one
in the partnership.
That's a huge
first step in it,
because once
you see that,
you start
to see things
from another
person's
point of view,
you start to see it
without emotion.
You start to see
all these pieces
that just
bring it back to.
It's a business
decision.
Either
the relationship
is more important
than the
business, or
the business
is more important.
And when you answer
that,
if it's
the business,
nothing was
going to help.
Sorry,
I was going to say
for me,
it's it's
calibrating
the relationship
at different times.
So if you think
of a relationship,
you have to have
how many of them
are exactly
starting from
the start
till the end.
And if they are
very the same
from the start
to the end.
And I'm
sorry for you,
because
the excitement
of life
is probably
been missing
because cause,
an excitement
in living
and changing
that happens
in every
relationship.
Most people
we've seen or ever
had to help people
from business
partnerships
that aren't working
is that
having calibrated
to the person's
change
to the same way
you change
with your
you know, Lana
and I,
our first
month of dating
is very different
to our 11th year
in marriage, right?
Very different.
Unfortunately, no,
but I'm saying
it's just a joke.
By
you've got
calibrations on
a personal level
that you
should be doing
with your loved
one, right?
Checking in
your friends,
your family
and all this.
It's the same
with the
business partner.
So if you're
not invested in
that person.
So I,
I have a running
track in my mind
that is
my job is to
make sure
Alina and Nigel
are getting
their best life
through
the business
that they can.
That's the guiding
track first.
Then we worry
about the rest.
Now, if they're
not happy
or they're
not invested,
or you can see
they're changing
or they go through
different things
in life,
that investment
has to be
to take the time
to understand
how it is not.
This is how
you're meant to be
as a business
partner.
And you've got
this brush.
That was
because when
we started it,
you were working
18 hours a day
and now you only
want to work 16
and I resent you
for that
or the
balance of power.
And I'm actually
in some really
lucky
relationships,
especially some
other
business interests
with friends
as well.
And the
they know
me so well
and they accept me
for things
that I would know
would drive me
crazy
as a business
partner.
But because
we've got
a relationship
like that,
that acceptance
also gives us
acceleration
and trust
and care
in different areas.
So for me, it's
you have
to be aware
that this is
not a thing,
that from day
one to day
ten is going to be
the same.
You have to
keep recalibrating
to the person.
So I think
you have to be
as invested
in the person
as you are
in the company
to really make
these things
powerful.
And we've
seen this over
and over again
when the business
partners
fall out of love
with each other.
I'm going to do
about intimate
business
relationships,
but people
will come together
at the start
and try to company
and ended up
together
for ten years.
They're not
invested in
each other.
They sort of
lose it
and then you
see the drift.
And they
actually don't
have the
the ability
to be
business
partner, friends
or business
partners
in the right way.
And once you lose
a communication
or you
don't recalibrate
at the times,
you have to,
it becomes
very difficult
to enjoy wanting
to build
something together
because the worst
thing happens,
it just
becomes stale.
And then when
they're stale,
like,
where's the company
heading?
It's the first part
of it,
a death knock.
So it's, it's
it's tricky.
That's it's tricky.
Another element
in something
that's so again,
it's so hard
to win.
And it's an element
that it's
either going to 100
fold,
make it fun
better easier or
it'll kill you
100 times faster.
And I think that's
the hard way
that can
change daily
if you're
not calibrated
to that
being the most
important thing
to hold to me,
that's people
ask, well,
how is it working?
It's wonderful
if you
get it right,
and it's
actually the
most lonely thing
if it's not working
or going wrong,
because you've
actually got
no one to turn to.
And that's the
it's a high
risk game.